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View Full Version : HELP!! Need electrical near Paoli



pygmypotomus
02-26-2008, 01:02 PM
I have finally HAD IT with Cloverleaf. Never going back. Their proximity does me no good if the "fixed" car still doesn't run and has sprouted new problems. This is the second time it's happened.

After $350 Shaun now has a new starter but just (edit to correct newbie mistake) TURNS WITHOUT FIRING. Also his right taillight is stuck on, so I can't signal a R turn.

He started reluctantly at the shop (they had already closed for the day when I collected him) but this morning, no go. I had to cancel all of my patients for the day since I had given up the borrowed car. *FUMING*

He's at the bottom of a hill (end of driveway) so push start is a challenge. Have no hand crank.

Really don't want to pay for an extended tow, and don't know where to take him anyway. HELP! I need some advice!

Anyone who is close & can make a house call? We can make it worth your while, in bodywork, acupuncture, food, cash, wiper motors, gratitude, etc.
484-238-8127
Sharon

galen211
02-26-2008, 01:59 PM
My truck did this also and one thing you need to check is the flywheel. If it is missing teeth and that spot happens to stop where the starter is it will "whir" because it isn't catching anything.

One easy test it to put the truck in gear and rock it back and forth to make the flywheel move to another spot. Sometimes that is all it takes.

Oh and go back to that shop and get the old starter because it sounds like there is nothing wrong with it.

oscar
02-26-2008, 04:58 PM
Oh and go back to that shop and get the old starter because it sounds like there is nothing wrong with it.

That's what I was thinking....

You can jumpstart the vehicle with another and a tow line.....when I was a kid we did that all the time, as we didn't have money for starters, uphill both ways blah blah.....;)

pygmypotomus
03-07-2008, 07:56 AM
Ok, so I have a new starter (prob unnecessarily), and a new fuel filter, but still no firing. The engine turns just fine.

Matt tried to bleed the fuel lines but he's still getting air - we suspect he's doing it wrong. Either that or a mysterious clog.

Please, alms for the incompetent! Call or write if you have suggestions. For a "daily driver" he's spending too much time lazing about in the garage. And my girlfriend's getting sick of me commandeering the Jetta.

Sharon

PS - I got a phone call listing many horrid crimes against nature perpetrated by Cloverleaf. I plan to write the AG about it. Sure would like that $650 back.

oscar
03-07-2008, 08:18 AM
Is this a diesel? Petrol fuel lines don't need bleeding. If you disconnect at the carb and crank fuel should be coming out in copious amounts.....(aim into a container)

You can tell though if you're getting fuel by smelling by exhaust pipe or taking the aircleaner off and looking down the body......pushing accellerator should create a squirt into the carb....

pygmypotomus
03-07-2008, 01:01 PM
Yes, diesel. Will have another go at it this weekend.

pbmonk
03-10-2008, 09:31 PM
I have no (recent) experience with a diesel. But....

According to the 2.286 4cyl diesel Haynes manual:

Engine rotates but will not start. Possible causes:
-- Air in fuel system
-- Heater plugs faulty
-- Faulty or incorrectly adjusted fuel injection pump/distributor or injectors
-- Fuel injector/distributor pump timing incorrect
-- Fuel not reaching injection pump or injectors
-- Low cylinder compression

I presume that the timing hasn't been adjusted so it seems to me that one of the first two or #5 is likely the problem. Did the heater plug circuit get compromised during the starter changes (can't see how...)? Could the fuel pump have failed? If you need instructions about priming the fuel system I can copy/e-mail a few pages from the manual.

pygmypotomus
03-11-2008, 11:01 AM
Thank you! That would be extremely helpful!
laughinglagomorph at gmail dot com

Matt's been on call or passed out for the past week, so there's been no progress. Then on Sunday our "reliable" car, the Jetta, dropped his tranny. We are now down to just the London Taxi for the three of us. Ug.

Would anybody be interested in a barn-raising-style work day on Shaun? We would provide music, good food, beverages of choice *grin*, massage, acupuncture, custom knitwear, whatever you want. :) I still have those wiper motors. I have a ton of little parts (most everything off The List from garage day) and the basic toolbox, but although Matt is generally competent under a bonnet we could use some help. Okay, a lot of help. :)

We do have a garage with power outlets. Yell if you think this sounds like fun.

oscar
03-11-2008, 06:59 PM
Don't know how the Rover is, but on my tractor you can feel the heater plugs getting warm.....

A compression check is easy.

Bleeding I bet.......

Rineheitzgabot
03-12-2008, 06:21 PM
At work, when a truck runs out of fuel, we do a number of things (assuming that 'there is air in the lines', and they need bled).

We crack the lines (loosen them considerably), turn the motor over until fuel consistently squirts out, then tighten them. Sometimes this is all it takes. We have been known to put an air line in the opening of the fuel tank opening, while cranking (pressurizing the tank to force fuel into the lines). Take a line from an air compressor and put it just inside the opening of the tank, then "seal" the rest of the opening with a rag or towel. At times, dare I say it, we give a few huffs of ether (starting fluid). Although dangerous, ether will either prove that fuel is or is not the cause of problem (lack of ingnition).

The point of the above is to provide tips to eliminate the fuel source as the problem. It is important that you have a battery charger handy since all those things require alot of engine turnover, drying out the battery.

Hope this helps

oscar
03-12-2008, 07:04 PM
Be CAREFUL with ether....too much can lead to head gasket damage or worse.....

Because of the need for bleeding when changing fuel filters, and the need to do this frequently due to longer time in which fuel gets used (it sits) some boat owners mount cheap ($50) in line fuel pumps........

Flip the switch, crack the lines starting at the lift pump and working your way to the injectors....and voila.....

pygmypotomus
03-15-2008, 09:49 PM
Thanks to diesel fuel instructions emailed by Mr. Pbmonk, we bled the lines properly this time.

Still won't start.

Since we're not feeling any heat we're hypothesizing it's the glow plugs. They WERE fine but those Cloverleaf #*%@(^!'s were messing about with them... so who knows? We are out of other things to try.

Cloverleaf-induced electrical issues still not resolved. May attack them tomorrow.

oscar
03-16-2008, 09:10 AM
Go to store, Home Despot, Radio Shaft, and get cheap multi meter. See if there is electricity (12V) going to glow plugs when switch is engaged.

If not.......follow the wire back to the switch. Check fuses.....

Or, run a direct wire to glow plugs from battery and see if you feel heat.

pygmypotomus
03-16-2008, 10:20 AM
We already did the direct jump from the battery to plugs - no heat.

Craigness
03-16-2008, 01:39 PM
Unless it's mad cold or the engine is real worn, glow plugs just aid starting..

You should still get a bang or attempt to start without a glow plug. Yesterday was quite warm, it should have started ok without the plugs.

You can warm up the engine with a propane torch LIGHTLY for about 20 minutes. I would heat up the injectors just a bit. Not red hot or you will be in orbit but just warm to the touch. Then try to start it up.

You also might have a injector pump timing issue or air leaking into the manifold. Both those things mimic the problems with hard starts when warm and no starts when cold.

Diesels are temperamental if there is a timing or compression problem. I have never seen a diesel that is properly tuned and has good compression and timing need glow plugs to start. I had a 4 cylinder Yanmar Diesel on my sailboat that I tuned so well that I never had to use the glow plugs even in the winter. Oh, it smoked like a mother****er in the winter but only for 3-5 minutes.

Remember glow plugs just aid starting in cold weather. They are not required to start the engine. If it's turning over and over with no attempt at a catch, you have another problem.

Craig

oscar
03-16-2008, 01:43 PM
Yes and no. My Yanmar (4JHBE) a 44 horse, also on a sailboat, doesn't even HAVE plugs anymore. But, they did crank up the compression ratio. A different animal.

On my Kubota tractor plugs are needed at all times.......

I would take the plugs out and test them on the bench.

Yes timing and compression issues will kill it. But, if it ran last week none of that has changed.

Rineheitzgabot
03-16-2008, 02:38 PM
I still say give it a couple very small huffs of starting fluid. If it starts, and then after a few seconds, dies--it is your fuel. If it doesn't start at all, at least you know it's not your fuel.

Are you confident that your fuel is good?

-Gary

Rineheitzgabot
03-16-2008, 02:49 PM
...About the fuel thing. Starting fluid will start the vehicle, almost certainly IF everything else is in order (see the previous post).

If it is the fuel, this means that somehow, it might not be getting fuel, OR the fuel is bad. Did this Cloverleaf place put some crap fuel in it?

From what I know, glow plugs AID in starting, from a theoretical standpoint. They are necessary when you don't want your battery to go dead from cranking, but they are not needed if it is possible to have a magic battery that never runs out of juice.

Rusty and Tad
03-17-2008, 04:57 PM
Sharon,

Any luck?

I will be passing through your neck of the woods this week and if you still need a hand I can arrange my schedule to take an evening off.

You can email me at bikesnrovers at gmail com.

Tad

pygmypotomus
03-17-2008, 06:16 PM
Mailed you - thanks!!

pygmypotomus
03-20-2008, 10:34 AM
Tad came out to stand in the damp, windy cold and stare into the engine with me (thank you very much!).

The voltmeter says 2 dead glow plugs, so I've ordered a new set.
Tad also thinks Shaun isn't squirting enough fuel, so he kindly offered to send me a fuel pump to see if that helps.

He has a very nice dog.

Updates to follow...

oscar
03-20-2008, 10:57 AM
Progress......good.:)

pygmypotomus
03-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Must... make... Robesonia...!

oscar
03-20-2008, 03:12 PM
Lucky you......I have a previous commitment which I can NOT escape from :(

crazyfish
03-20-2008, 08:56 PM
Go Tad!

Rusty and Tad
03-22-2008, 04:54 PM
Well, I really felt useless... But I did have a thought after I returned and I wished I would have had it there!

I cracked the fuel pipe going to #1 injector and when cranking the engine over there was only a dribble of fuel. When I put my thumb over the pipe I could block the flow pretty easily. Not the high pressure one would expect from a diesel.

When I got home it hit me that I should have checked the intake pipe in the tank. I have a feeling that the screen, if there is one, is clogged. I am still not ruling out the fuel pump, but might as well start with the easy stuff first.

When I put the multimeter on the glow/heater plugs there was twelve volts to the first, 12 to the second (i.e. no resistance from the first) and then about 8 at the third and only one or two at the fourth.

I am sending Sharon out a good used fuel pump and also a compression gauge for a diesel. If the wind wasn't blowing cold air up me kilt the day I was there I would have at least pulled the injectors to see how much air was blowing out. However, the circumstances of the failure to start lead me to believe that it is fuel related.

Shaun is a great looking Rover - but the London Taxi ROCKS!

Tad

pygmypotomus
03-22-2008, 09:03 PM
Great idea!

We got the glow plugs today. Hopefully I can beat Matt into working on him tomorrow.

Thanks again, Tad!

oscar
03-23-2008, 12:16 PM
Sounds like fuel to me............

To check the fuel intake without taking a lot of stuff apart you can stick a hose on the intake side of the fuel pump and stick it in a clean container with fuel.......

pygmypotomus
04-07-2008, 01:44 PM
Here it is less than a week to Robesonia and Shaun is still dead.

We found a twisted seal in the new fuel filter, so the diesel is now flowing freely.

We know the glow plugs are dead and have new ones, but Matt doesn't want to put them in because he's afraid the diode was fried and doesn't want the NEW set to get cooked. Any advice? Talked to Atl Brit and George, neither have it.

Feeling like a right idiot here.

Rusty and Tad
04-15-2008, 09:43 AM
The resistor coil is just a coil of wire that should be easy to duplicate. From what I have read it should 'glow' when charged. Check in the book I sent, but IIRC it should step 12 volts down to 6.

We know that the resistor is getting power, so that is not the problem. I think with the warmer weather that Shaun will start, if other factors are OK.

I would still pull the heater plugs - you have to anyway - and do a compression check. Now that you have good fuel flow. I really think that you will find the compression good, maybe not great, but good and he should start.

I have my fingers crossed for you!