Dual Fuel, Autogas

[grnthng]

This is big in Europe, US is just getting on line with this now (why are we always behind) anyway, kit can be between $1000 to $1500...up to 27MPG...lower emissions....up to 450 miles of range (better than a diesel)....$1.30/gal. equivelent to gasoline (still need the gasoline for start-up)....the switch from gasoline to gas is automatic once the intial start and once you reach 2000 rpm's!
I'm very convinced and there is a fueling station near me already!

I want to do this bad...I just have to raise $1000!

Check it out!
http://v8dualfuel.com/

[Tom109]

I want to do this conversion to my 109! Trouble is the local propane company is not set-up to fuel vehicles. They are interested in pursuing alternative fuels though (already offer biodiesel), so perhaps they'll make the transition and I'll get a local fill location. Otherwise, if I can't fill locally, it's a non-starter.

I'm thinking the propane will go under the tub, forward of the rear wheel (2-door 109), and fill through the series fuel tank filler (I have exMoD under-seat-fill tanks). I could even fit a tank to both sides and lose zero interior space!

Tom P.

[grnthng]

On a series, you have quite a few options where to put the tank, which is good! They have one that looks like a spare to fit into spare wheel space.... on a regular car that is!
As far as fill stations, there must be one near you in one form or another... I would keep looking! In my case the fill station near me is a taxi cab co. and all his taxis and he has a small fleet of Ford Econolines that all run on LPG!
There is even a set up for filling right at your house....however big tanks and the fill nozzles must get expensive, I know some of you guys in rural PA already have propane tanks on your properties!

I think the Clean Air act was holding this up, because it had to be EPA approved....but isn't this expired now? I'm still looking into the laws here in Jersey! I think this is going to take off within the next few years....and you will see fill nozzles popping up every where!

Ford is even offering a prep kit in there new cars, for the option to convert....just not sure if its only in fleet cars, or if an individual can also get the prep kit for just one car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZm5WOt_LAs

Looks like the Government is cooperating.....for now, until it becomes " a supply and demand issue",, then instead of a tax credit...it will be a TAX, business as usual!
Get it while its cheap!!

http://www.propane.pro/autogas/3502-0527/

[Tom109]

I contacted a reputable autogas conversion firm in the UK and they quoted $800 + $100 DHL shipment. This would be everything forward of the tank for a carb'd LR. No sense paying for a tank to be shipped over...

I'm also looking for used/take-off kits as well.

Tom P.

[grnthng]

That's not bad at all! Sure you could source the tank here, its the under the hood kit that is not redely available specifically for Land Rover here in the states! Awesome!
I think you will be around $200 for the tank kit!
I will do the same....as soon as I can get the funds!

[Tom109]

I still have not located a local LPG filling station. I have a call in to the propane manager at our local fuel supplier. In NJ, I imagine this application is legislated 10 feet deep, so I'm hopeful they already plan to offer vehicle LPG fueling...

***UPDATE: OK, so my local propane supplier tells me you can fill-up at any propane station. The on-board tanks use the same fitting as everything else (1-1/4NPT?) and they just run a hose out to your vehicle.

So this does leave the conversion door open…

Tom P.

[grnthng]

I am also going to stop in tomorrow at the taxi cab place....to maybe find out the in's and out's on running propane and about individual taxing and the registration process!

[Rob P]

(still need the gasoline for start-up)....the switch from gasoline to gas is automatic once the intial start and once you reach 2000 rpm's!


I'm confused on this point. I realize the veggie conversion for diesel is diesel to start and then purge at the end but why would you need to start on gasoline and not on LPG? Forklifts don't use any Gasoline at all and I've known a guy in the late 70's who had a Ford truck that ran on LPG only.

[grnthng]

I might have misread in the section of the website where it explained the operation of the system! Maybe you don't need to start it with gasoline, fact of the matter is you are not going to remove your regular fuel system and the transition is automatic and not noticeable!

That's not the bad news though!

The one thing I defitnitly got wrong was well....pretty much everything, or at least in some part the way they portrait and explain it on the v8autogas website, keeping in mind the differences of currency and measurements!

OK, let me explain...i talked to a mechanic at the taxi-cab of the fill station I mentioned....problem #1, here in the US LPG costs way more than the UK....because there it is credited at the pump already to promote cleaner fuels. So, in the US your talking about $4bucks and change for Gal. equivalent! Here you will have to file for the tax credit....and if your not a fleet, I don't know what problems an individual would have to even get credited!

Problem #2...it does not get better fuel mileage....(they are claiming around the mpg of desiel),I'll post a link on that!

Problem #3...mechanic pulls an invoice to show me the breakdown of parts prices and labor for a complete kit....keeping in mind that even though some may vary in styles, components are similiar, and it was nowhere near what they are quoting on the website! $5,600.00..... ouch!!
I think it can be done way cheaper!
However, having said that.... it does not look like it will be anywhere nears a cost effective conversion, not in the US at least!

Disapointing!

http://www.whatgas.com/petrol-prices/lpg-prices.html

[Rob P]

even vegatable oils here in the US cost almost what diesel does at the pump unless you get ****ty oil used.

[Tom109]

In an interesting turn of events, I found an LPG fueling station less than a mile from work! I'll swing by tomorrow and hopefully get a few questions answered. Right now, my big dilemma is dealing with timing changes when switching between LPG/gasoline. There are few electronic gadgets to do it for you, but I'm not yet sure what they cost, and also not sure I want to spend the additional dollars.

In addition, I hope to dispel the info you were fed about $5k to convert a vehicle. That just doesn't make sense, especially since I'm looking at GBP250 for the tankless hardware. I found a few pricey conversion sites online, but didn't bother to keep reading as I think they are fleet conversion specialists and may do a 100% alternative fuel conversion (like CNG).

Tom P.

[Disco96JSWB]

I don't know anything about anything related to LPG, but I did find a rusted out ex-MOD 109 Series III in Thorndale PA that had an LPG conversion kit installed a few years ago.
I told a few people about it and Tom Bache bought it for spares. As I recall, he said a guy in Colorado wanted the LPG conversion hardware and paid to have it shipped out there.

[Tom109]

Today I swung by the local propane distribution center, and discovered I could simply drive right up to the dock to fill vehicle mounted tank(s)! Current (East Coast) price is $3.50/gallon, but this could be reduced by opening an account. The current wholesale cost is below $2/gallon, so there is feasible room for additional savings. This whole thing started simply as an alternative fuel option, primarily future-minded, so I would have a system in place when gasoline hits $5+/gallon. It now appears to be much more of a current fuel alternative.

The next step is researching tanks. According to my UK sources, they typically run ~65 liter (17gallon) tanks. TO allow for expansion, LPG tanks can only be filled to 80%. A 65L tank is approx. 52L full, this size roughly equates in range to a Series under-seat fuel tank. Naturally they recommend fitting as large a tank as space allows, increasing range. I'm still hopeful I can plumb twin tanks, expanding range, but allowing me to run mainly off one tank, reducing average fill costs.

[Rob P]

Looking forward to seeing it at the picnic in October.

[grnthng]

In an interesting turn of events, I found an LPG fueling station less than a mile from work! I'll swing by tomorrow and hopefully get a few questions answered. Right now, my big dilemma is dealing with timing changes when switching between LPG/gasoline. There are few electronic gadgets to do it for you, but I'm not yet sure what they cost, and also not sure I want to spend the additional dollars.

In addition, I hope to dispel the info you were fed about $5k to convert a vehicle. That just doesn't make sense, especially since I'm looking at GBP250 for the tankless hardware. I found a few pricey conversion sites online, but didn't bother to keep reading as I think they are fleet conversion specialists and may do a 100% alternative fuel conversion (like CNG).

Tom P.

I saw the actuall invoice and it was including a $1,600.00 labor charge....still you are right, it might have included extra parts depending on the actuall system they are running in those taxi's!
BTW, those kits include a simple dashboard switch with a few Led lights indicating wether your in gasoline or LPG mode...and the transition to lpg which happens as soon as you reach 2000 rpm, is seemless! I think that's why they program it to 2000 rpm's so you don't feel it!
My problem is the price of the propane at the filling station....it would have to be somewhere around $1.75 to $2.00 max for it to be worth the conversion!
I have huge problem paying $4 bucks plus for a by-product of fuel refinement in which 95% of the the world's supply comes from rite here in the US ( they are already screwing me with the gasoline!)....this country needs to stop being so greedy on start worrying more about the enviroment!
If this LPG trend coinsides with everything else that we are behind with Europe when it comes to transportation private and commercial (which is about 15 years).....then you can expect to wait another 15 years for the commercial, private, and the government sectors to get on the same page!

I'll give you some perspective....Obama was standing in front of 2 tractor power units in a speech he was making on alternitive fuels, 1 was a UPS Kenworth LPG powered, the other from Coca Cola! If I am still driving a Volvo VM from 2003 and there are still tractors from 1995 or even earlier in our Carteret NJ terminal (and we are a big terminal)! The rate at which they replace with new units... which in the last 6 years we have only seen 10 to 12 units come in.....our terminal has 40 or so units!
I think it safe to say I might get my 25years in and retire before i get to drive one them!
Oooohhhh! It might tak'em that long to install a filling station on the premises.....LOL! the diesel fuel pump I use every morning there was manufactured in the 60's, Yikes!!

[Tom109]

The payback time was low on my list, as it's 1/10th the cost of a TDI/DI conversion, and I wasn't looking for immediate savings to pay for the conversion. The installation costs are my main concern as this is future-minded, and really will not make much sense until gasoline sits at $5+/gallon. At present fuel costs it's close to a wash - savings from the lower LPG cost are off-set by slightly lower MPG

The present hurdle is LP tanks, location and cost. finding tanks that "might" fit were I want them (other than the load bed) is rather pricey. Since I know where to get the front-end system, I'm putting everything on ice until I stumble into, or can afford, the right tanks...

Tom P.