PDA

View Full Version : couple of questions.... issues... etc.



soncjet
05-08-2012, 08:28 AM
alright, i knew it was too good to be true before i had an issue. i really havent had a chance to look at it but here is my latest issue...

95 rrc. is there an obd port for scanning? after a quick roadside google on the cellphone, i read that it was to be under the steering column, under the glovebox, and also under the passengers side seat (none of which i was able to locate)

i've had no issues in the 2 months i've had it. yesterday i leave work, get about a mile, and turn around to go back and look at a van FS for a buddy of mine. leave the rover run while i hop out. it stalls (very odd, never did this for me before). go to restart it, and it just cranks and cranks. no start.

meanwhile, normally when i start it, i have all sorts of buzzers going off (i attributed them to the abs/ traction control lights being on) which sound like theyre coming from behind the dash / under the cowl area - i had NONE of this yesterday when it wouldnt start. normally they stop in about 20 seconds, if even that long.

anyways, my wife showed up, with jumper cables, thinking maybe its the battery or something simple. didnt seem to make a difference. after crawling under in and around it looking for a scan port, i figured i'd try the key again... and VIOLA! started right up. i shut it off, and it restarted 3 more times. drove it home, shut it off, started right up - again, did this a few times.


this morning, i am running late for work... go to start it - nothing. just cranks but wont start. so i took the zj with one headlight installed :D any thoughts on where to look first? fuel is about 1/4 tank or so. battery never seemed to give me any issue. nothing was left on to drain it either. but it seems to crank fine, just doesnt start.


and of course.... i havent made time to get over to trevors shop 15 minutes away to have him give it a once over, and a little roverwhispering :cool:

thanks! Brian

rvrsrvc
05-08-2012, 09:37 AM
Not OBD 2 so it doesn't have the conventional trapezoidal shaped connector, but it does have a 5 pin harness connector for use with Autologic/Testbook etc. under the RH side of the dash, below the glovebox. It has a mated plug with a single wire into it.

But, under the seat is a 3"x3" box with an LED display that shows engine fault codes. It will display the most current fault first, but not easily navigated.

The CU14x engine management isn't particularly smart- most faults on display are often the effect, not the cause.

You would be better off starting with the basics during a no-start than relying on data from the diagnostic connector
1) Check for spark? the spade terminals to the coil are notorious for corrosion- I ususally replace them with eyelets (crimped and soldered) that are secured onto the coil studs with the same hardware that secures the original spade tabs.
2) Check for fuel? The pump will run for a few seconds when the key is first turned on to prime the system. You can usually hear the relays clicking and the fuel pump running, (unless the ABS pump is running at the same time due to a weak accumulator, and that sucker drowns out everything else)There is a port on the fuel rail with schraeder valve for checking fuel pressure. DO NOT depress the valve wearing nice clothes for work, or while smoking, or without an EPA level 3 suit.
Needs spark, fuel and air to run. Start with the basics and report back to us!

sven
05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
This truck had the exact same issue when I bought it a few years back. I actually had to get it towed home from work because it just died and it wouldnt start back up.

I traced it down to a faulty connector on the side of the distributor (pickup module). I cut the ends off and just joined the wires together. So, you should check that connection first, I bet that came loose.

soncjet
05-08-2012, 10:39 AM
I'll give your suggestions a once over. the caveot is, that if it is raining, baseball is cancelled and i have free time - HOWEVER, that means it is raining (and i have no garage).

it was really odd. after sitting there last night for maybe 15 minutes, and not doing ANYTHING to it, it fired right up. i'm pretty sure i heard the fuel pump kicking on

i'll see what i can come up with and report back. thanks!



thinking back on it... about a week ago, around the same area in my trip it seemed to sputter a bit. i attributed it to being A) low on fuel, B) mashing on the throttle as i was running late and C) going thru several "S" turns. most likely no correlation, just a random thought that popped into my head. that was an isolated incident as well. making me wonder if possibly the fuel guage might not be wonky, and reading improperly? hmmmmmmm

soncjet
05-08-2012, 05:38 PM
Needs spark, fuel and air to run. Start with the basics and report back to us!

spade terminals have already been replaced with rings. they looked clean and uncorroded, but i will pull them and clean them none the less.

i have so many relays clicking, not sure which it might be. is the abs pump mounted on the inner fender? if so, that IS making a racket. much more noticeable with the hood up, and door open. i did hit the schraeder valve, and there is fuel there. i stood infront, and was careful to watch where it shot. thanks for the heads up.

guess i need to check the terminals on the coil, see if my box of parts it came with had an additional coil to try, and go from there.

at the battery my cheezy "gauge" shows it steady at 12v, and flickers at 12.5. when i had my boy hit the key, it dropped to the lowest "red" light, at 5.0v. that doesnt seem normal that it drops that far.

what gets me though... is that it cranks like it has plenty of power there. baffling. the battery does not appear to be very old. in fact, i think it was replaced not too long ago... as well as the alternator and starter too i believe. i'll have to find the folder and double check that.

soncjet
05-09-2012, 11:21 AM
last night i took the battery out and got it tested, just to see (since there wasnt much else i was doing in the rain). they said it was only holding at either 61 or 64%. put it on the charger overnight, didnt get to mess with it this morning before work.

the auto store lackey said that it's possible the alternator, is on its way out. i'm randomly hoping that i get home today, it fires up, and i can take it to get the alt. tested to try and narrow that down. if it is, it will be the first alternator i've had to replace on any vehicle in the last 20+ years. not bad i guess.

both battery and alternator aren't even 2 yrs old August 2010... which i'm assuming Sven did while it was still in his hands in State College if i have the timeline figured out.

sven
05-09-2012, 11:53 AM
Yeah I replaced the alt and battery.

Did you check the pickup connection on the side of the distributor?

soncjet
05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
after going thru the file, i just assumed that Sven was your screen name.... :p guess not.

not yet, i havent checked that. i DID see this morning there was a rather large, random unconnected plug in the area of the coil, but not sure if it was for the air suspension or the front fog lights (neither of which are on the vehicle).

soncjet
05-10-2012, 11:08 AM
i'm baffled here. i had the battery out, on the charger all night tues night and all day wed. popped it back in, and it fired right up.

drove it to The Zone, where the parts schlep commented on how bad ass it is :cool:, then hooked up his electrical whojiggy. said the battery was holding proper charge. also that the alternator was putting out properly.

i'm guessing then, that i must have an electrical draw somewhere now that is draining the battery. why it started at work, drove a mile down the road, then it decided to shut off is what is most puzzling. it didnt even start sluggishly.



i guess a visit to the local rover whisperer is in the near future. :D just to be on the safe side.

Rob P
05-10-2012, 10:19 PM
B 4x4 S won't steer you wrong. Just dont drive in his backyard, even he gets stuck there.

soncjet
05-15-2012, 08:55 PM
update of sorts...

been working fine since my last post a few days ago... until this morning.

same exact thing. cranks, has fuel, battery has 12v at the terminals... but no go. wont turn over and start. i had absolutely no issues between last week and now. i had the battery unhooked and on the charger all day... no difference. i put the one in my ZJ in it which is new... no difference.

i used my stupid little tester, and when put to the alternator when hitting the key, drops to 5v. thats not normal, is it? i called my vw mechanic, who said that he's not familiar with it doing that... although it may be a rover thing, and i just dont understand it. is it supposed to drop when hitting the key like that? with everything off, i get 12v at the alternator post, as soon as we hit the key, in the same spot on the alt, i'm only getting 5v.



i really dont have a whole lot of time to monkey with this... i think i may be calling AAA for a ride to e-town for a visit. :(

sven
05-16-2012, 09:36 AM
So is the starter turning over (spinning, making noise, etc)? Your first posts says it "cranks over" and your last post says "it wont turn over"...

soncjet
05-16-2012, 10:48 AM
my bad on the verbage i used. yes. the starter is turning over (makes noise, seems to spin, serp belt moves, etc) . however, the truck however just won't start.


overall recap
* hit the key, relays click on (abs pump goes wonky and buzzes like it always does drowning out everything else)
* i get fuel at the schrader valve on the fuel rail
* i have 12v at the battery (tried multiple batteries, with and without being on the charger (at both 12v charge setting, and 75v start setting), with and without jumper cables to a 2nd vehicle)
* had alternator tested last week on vehicle, at autozone, it supposedly tested fine.
* had old battery tested, it was low, but charged overnight, and had been fine.
* switched new battery purchased for ZJ last week with rover battery. jeep has had no issues using rover battery, can't say as much for the rover. (they're the same size, post location, cca, etc)
* when hitting the key, voltage coming off of alternator appears to drop to 5v or so. using the top stud, on the backside. while sitting there with nothing being done, the same stud has 12v. only drops when turning the key.
* when hitting the key, starter seems to engage, makes noise, serp belt spins, just won't start. rrr rrr rrr rrr rrr :D
* water does not seem to be entering the engine bay to get things wet... however it HAS been raining (coincidence? or cause?)
* alternator and "old" battery are not even 2 yrs old. have receipts to back this up (and sven too :p )

sven
05-16-2012, 11:40 AM
Its not the battery or alternator..

Have you tested for spark? If its not sparking then its most likely that connector I talked about earlier... If you werent so far away Id drive over there right now and help!

soncjet
05-16-2012, 02:50 PM
i had not before, because it seemed as though it had resolved itself. i assumed that i might have had a draw on the battery, and by charging it has helped my issue.


HOWEVER.... my wife being the good person she is... has been saying - have you checked the spark plugs. what if the distributor got wet. did you get water in it... all sorts of what seemed to be off the wall ideas. so i get a txt message from her 10 min ago... "your rover starts now - love you." seriously? wtf. absolutely NOTHING AT ALL changed. she did point out, that the last time this happened, it had rained. and guess what it's done for the last 2 days??? yup.

so somehow, while parked in my driveway, i'm getting water somewhere that is causing it to not start. i thought it always rained on the other side of the pond? whyfor am i plagued with this. i've not noticed any water leaks anywhere. i dont drive around with the hood off...


i need a pint of brew. ugh.

rijosho
05-16-2012, 03:11 PM
You need to find out if it's fuel or ignition.

So you can hear your fuel pump working when you initially turn the key (not to crank, but in the second position from what I remember)? Can you smell fuel? Have you checked the color of your spark (want really bright blue), check coil, check silver relays, etc.

As Trevor said, make sure those connections to the coil are clean and tight.

soncjet
05-16-2012, 03:32 PM
the abs pump is so loud, it's hard to tell what else is turning on... however, if i remove the cap on the fuel rail, and depress the schrader valve, there is pressurized fuel there. that leads me to believe it's not a fuel issue.

i checked all the connections at the coil, they were all clean and tight... just the way i like it. :cool:

i have NOT pulled any plugs or plug wires yet.



with this latest "restarting and running fine" from this afternoon without doing a darn thing to it (other than it drying up outside) i'm thinking it has to be some sort of water infiltration thing. no? or am i completely off base and not seeing the forest for the trees?!?!??!

voodooEcon
05-18-2012, 05:25 AM
the abs pump is so loud, it's hard to tell what else is turning on... however, if i remove the cap on the fuel rail, and depress the schrader valve, there is pressurized fuel there. that leads me to believe it's not a fuel issue.

i checked all the connections at the coil, they were all clean and tight... just the way i like it. :cool:

i have NOT pulled any plugs or plug wires yet.



with this latest "restarting and running fine" from this afternoon without doing a darn thing to it (other than it drying up outside) i'm thinking it has to be some sort of water infiltration thing. no? or am i completely off base and not seeing the forest for the trees?!?!??!

...I had the same problem a few years ago in my [former] 93RRC. Long story short, for me it was the plug wires that needed to be replaced.

Honestly, the same exact problem. It didn't even need to actually be a rain storm, sometimes even light drizzle or super high humidity manifested the problem.

I was going crazy trying to figure out what was wrong since the truck ran like a champ at all other times and I had no water leaks into the engine. Frank (from this board) and I decided to wait for a dry day when it was running fine and for it to be dark outside, then we started the truck and sprayed the ignition wires directly with a spray bottle of water. In the dark you could actually see the wires shorting out through their rubber coating?! I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it myself. Anyway, I replaced them with OEM and never had a problem again.

Frank84
05-19-2012, 01:32 PM
Along the lines of what Chris said - don't overlook the obvious. If you don't know when the last time a tune up was done start with that. Plugs, wires, cap, rotor. Other than the larger diameter magnecore wires (8mm+), I haven't had great luck with wires going much more than 30k miles without deteriorating on the rovers.

soncjet
05-19-2012, 05:14 PM
never even gave it a thought about the plug wires arcing with the humidity... the VW vr6 coilpacks are NOTORIOUS for that. duhhhhh me. i've been running around alot lately, and havent had much time to mess with anything. with yet another night of little league baseball ahead of me. and yardwork tomorrow. and more baseball after that.



on a side note... i found the secret lair of the e-town rover whisperer today while coming back from down the road a ways. :cool: i didnt stop, as it appeared there was some biking about to take place, and didn't want to slow down any physical activity that was about to take place. :D guess if i was going to stalk the place out... doing it in a lifted classic is not the most subdued way of doing it. hahahaha. my boys did spot some goats on a roof somewhere though.